WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:11.880 All right, so we are going to have our next speaker, so this talk is about from policy 00:11.880 --> 00:17.360 to practice, open source in the Dutch government by China and we have the floor to see 00:17.360 --> 00:18.360 us. 00:18.360 --> 00:19.360 Awesome, thank you. 00:19.360 --> 00:33.920 Hey guys, it's very warm here, it's all very grateful for you all to see you all here. 00:33.920 --> 00:38.800 It is the seventh year that I am here, seven years ago, I came here with my colleague 00:38.800 --> 00:45.440 Angela who I hope is in the...there she is, in the audience, we were building an open source 00:45.440 --> 00:49.720 environment for an international loan profit and we came here for inspiration. 00:49.720 --> 00:55.040 We love that so much that we came here every year, albeit sometimes digitally. 00:55.040 --> 01:00.000 So I am very honored to be speaking here today, thank you. 01:00.000 --> 01:07.440 I'm going to tell you a little bit about policy in the open source...sorry, open source 01:07.440 --> 01:13.880 policy in the Dutch government because there is a lot happening. 01:13.880 --> 01:22.440 It would be nice at this work, that works so well. 01:22.440 --> 01:28.200 As I think all of you know, open source started as fun little hobby projects that we were 01:28.200 --> 01:35.360 all eager to contribute to and for us, the government sort of became a tool to maybe 01:35.360 --> 01:42.120 save some money somewhere along the way, to now being integral to our digital sovereignty, 01:42.200 --> 01:45.800 both on a national level and at the European level. 01:45.800 --> 01:52.120 So with all of the developments with Microsoft and all of the other news and Greenland, 01:52.120 --> 01:57.960 digital sovereignty has become a really hot topic and thus open source also gain traction. 01:57.960 --> 02:04.360 And now we're even contributing, collaborating on a European level on open source 02:04.360 --> 02:11.080 and the European Parliament Commission is also involved in bringing this to a European 02:11.080 --> 02:18.120 stage. I don't think I need to show you this slide. I think you are all aware of why open 02:18.120 --> 02:23.640 source and digital sovereignty are now connected, but I would always like to highlight the 02:23.640 --> 02:28.680 example of the international criminal court having their email blocked by Microsoft, 02:28.680 --> 02:33.560 which was sort of the catalyst for government to see open source as this important tool 02:33.640 --> 02:43.160 for a digital sovereignty. I hope this is readable, especially the first part. 02:43.160 --> 02:50.200 This is a timeline of policy in the Dutch government regarding open source and it starts all the way 02:50.200 --> 02:57.080 back when my frontal lobe wasn't even developed yet in 2003 with the vendor commotion, which was 02:57.160 --> 03:06.040 the first piece of policy that promoted the use of open source. And I would like to emphasize 03:06.040 --> 03:13.640 that policy is more than just boring rules. It is what we as a government find important and 03:13.640 --> 03:18.120 thus what we will find funding for does policy equals money. 03:18.120 --> 03:27.720 It all explained this, but it all started with the vendor commotion from that came a few 03:27.720 --> 03:34.200 programs that sort of implemented open source and open stand there. It's not really that actively yet. 03:34.760 --> 03:41.960 It wasn't until open unless came as a policy measure that open source really started to gain 03:41.960 --> 03:47.720 traction and really started to get noticed. Unless means that governments who 03:47.720 --> 03:55.720 procure or build their own software need to use open source as default, unless there's a reason not 03:55.720 --> 04:01.160 to. Now unfortunately especially in the beginning, the unless was very popular. So 04:02.200 --> 04:10.200 took a while to choose the right way. But it meant that we were now held to active publication 04:10.200 --> 04:17.240 of our source code because source code is government information. There between 2003 and this moment 04:17.240 --> 04:22.440 there were countless other policy documents that my colleagues will know, but this is a big one 04:22.440 --> 04:31.000 that was recently recently. The focus here is transparency making sure that our government code 04:31.000 --> 04:42.120 is also usable and eligible for civilians for citizens. And of course you see here the influence 04:42.120 --> 04:54.120 of the public money is public code campaign so shout out to the FS of the. Yeah, it's been 04:54.120 --> 05:00.040 since 2020, a lot of stuff has happened. Open source has got a lot of traction because it's been 05:00.040 --> 05:05.560 linked to digital sovereignty. We have the Dutch digital strategy that came out last year 05:05.640 --> 05:14.840 which has sort of six pillars in which open source is at the foundation we think and especially 05:14.840 --> 05:22.280 digital autonomy. Which means that now that we have prioritized this funding is being allocated towards 05:22.280 --> 05:29.240 it. Same with the next one. This is a gift from the previous government as of yesterday. 05:29.640 --> 05:34.680 We have a new government with a new vision but they seem to be very well influenced by this piece. 05:35.320 --> 05:39.640 Which means that there's now political commitments to digital autonomy and this will sovereignty 05:39.640 --> 05:45.160 and the use of open source and open standards. And it focuses a lot on the sovereignty part of it. 05:46.120 --> 05:54.840 And with that to much to our pleasure came a strong call to use European open source alternatives 05:54.840 --> 06:03.880 which we have been building. Oh, got a little too fast. Sorry. That's sort of the policy side. 06:03.880 --> 06:07.640 I would also like to tell you some examples of where this policy came to be, 06:08.440 --> 06:14.200 where it how it came to be in practice. Starting with and what challenges arose from that. 06:14.760 --> 06:23.160 Starting with a very small project called OpenCat. And OpenCat came to be around 2020 during the 06:23.160 --> 06:36.120 COVID crisis and is sort of linked to the first signs of the open-unless policy. 06:36.120 --> 06:42.120 So it's a vulnerability tool used to strengthen the ecosystem around the COVID app and later a bunch 06:42.120 --> 06:49.720 of other apps because it's just a great tool to secure the production environments. And it was built 06:49.720 --> 06:55.160 by the Ministry of Health. After a while after COVID app wasn't that necessary anymore, 06:55.880 --> 07:02.760 the app was still being used by also a lot of other parties but the Health Department was kind of 07:02.760 --> 07:05.960 done with it. So then the question came to be, okay, what do we do now? 07:09.880 --> 07:14.760 Before that there was also a discussion on, okay, there's this open-unless policy. Should we 07:14.760 --> 07:19.480 maybe open-source this and then how do we do that? There was a strong conversation. I'm 07:19.480 --> 07:24.440 I and my colleague here at the Ministry of the Health Department. There was a strong conversation 07:24.440 --> 07:30.120 with the legal department of the Ministry to ask, yeah, what are we allowed to publish and how and where. 07:30.120 --> 07:35.720 And once that was figured out, it was made open-source. One of the first projects. And then the 07:35.720 --> 07:40.200 question came to be, okay, once we're done with it, where will it lens? Who is going to maintain it? 07:41.160 --> 07:50.760 Fortunately, it found a strong community of maintainers and they set up a foundation and it found 07:50.760 --> 07:59.480 its home there. I mentioned this one because it's one of the first ones, sure that there are many 07:59.480 --> 08:03.880 before but this is one of the big ones where government got involved and realized, oh, we need a strategy here. 08:04.840 --> 08:11.080 The next one is one that I'm very proud of. It's Manburo. It is the Dutch version of last 08:11.080 --> 08:18.760 suite and the German openness. It's the open-source alternative workspace for government employees. 08:18.760 --> 08:24.600 And it's filled with open-source alternatives. This is sort of what online I did six years ago 08:24.600 --> 08:30.200 at the Mama Cash Foundation but now on a national level. It's really nice and it's made in the 08:30.200 --> 08:33.640 edict. So it's made in collaboration with France, Germany and a bunch of other countries. 08:34.360 --> 08:40.680 But this also raises the question again of where we're building this. Where is this going to land? 08:40.680 --> 08:48.840 Who's going to maintain it? But also procurement questions. So how will a support of the apps work? 08:48.840 --> 08:56.920 Who is going to, how the SLAs? All of the legal stuff behind procurement but now it's a bunch of 08:56.920 --> 09:02.280 open-source apps and we've never done that before. How does that work? And how do we collaborate 09:02.280 --> 09:06.200 and finance to the cross government? Because everyone wants to use it but who's going to finance? 09:06.760 --> 09:15.480 So that's something that we are discovering. And my personal favorite, my pet project is the 09:15.480 --> 09:21.160 co-platform because we are going to move all our code or at least offer an alternative to GitHub 09:21.160 --> 09:26.440 for government code. That is most likely going to be before J.O. if I pronounce it correctly this time. 09:27.880 --> 09:34.680 We are going to pilot that and we're going to host it on the Daoostec that digitally autonomous 09:34.680 --> 09:42.680 workspace stack. But that also again, we have the same challenges again. So how do we 09:45.240 --> 09:52.360 how do we ensure that we have a strong community of maintainers and not just that, not just on our side 09:52.360 --> 09:57.960 but also how do we support the for J.O. community? How do we ensure that once we choose the 09:57.960 --> 10:04.200 solution that it will still be there 10 years and how do we ensure its sustainability? 10:04.920 --> 10:11.800 That is a question that we have never had to ask because we've always just paid for a contract and then 10:11.800 --> 10:17.640 they would be legally obligated and it's arranged. And now there's a whole different way of engaging 10:17.640 --> 10:24.360 with these communities and with code and with not just taking but also contributing. So that's 10:24.360 --> 10:30.360 what we're trying to figure out. And also yes, we've got mentioned on Hacker News because we are 10:31.400 --> 10:36.440 trying to do this as openness possible. So this is sort of our conclusion. 10:37.960 --> 10:43.000 It's not the tech. The tech is fine. We've seen that in my bido and all of the other examples 10:43.720 --> 10:47.560 it's governments. We need to get out of our own way. There's just a lot to sort out. 10:48.200 --> 10:53.480 Whether it's procurement, that my reason I was a lot about or community building, all that stuff. 10:56.440 --> 11:02.600 So the lessons learned from government, from the Ospo, from also for the communities, 11:02.600 --> 11:07.080 is that and within the government mostly, is that a lot of it is happening. 11:08.040 --> 11:13.720 I don't want to say the bottom, but at the level of people that actually code, 11:13.720 --> 11:18.760 that's where the solutions come from. They build the tech. And we should be funding them. 11:19.320 --> 11:23.800 Because too often we see that someone comes up with a great solution and then all of a sudden 11:24.520 --> 11:29.880 now they have to maintain it. And how do we ensure that that is done sustainably? 11:30.440 --> 11:37.080 Second, if we do build open source, if we do build our own solutions, or we start contributing, 11:37.720 --> 11:43.400 then maybe we need a place where it can land. Because I think the perception still is that if we 11:43.800 --> 11:47.960 choose these open source solutions, then we're done. No, it also needs infrastructure. And that also 11:47.960 --> 11:52.520 needs to be sovereign to host your app on Azure, that sort of defeats point. 11:53.480 --> 12:00.520 And finally, if we decide to buy, so if procurement happens, then we need to help open source 12:00.520 --> 12:13.960 communities small or large with getting information to be able to help to be involved in this 12:13.960 --> 12:18.520 procurement. Because we have a lot of rules, it's about the size of your company, the amount of money 12:18.600 --> 12:24.680 you have, the amount of boys you have, to get through that that's a different way of procurement. 12:25.320 --> 12:31.880 Otherwise you'll keep on ending up with big tech, big consultancy, and just the same sort of solutions. 12:31.880 --> 12:39.240 So that's a challenge for us, not even for the communities. I think that is about it. 12:39.240 --> 12:41.160 I've kept it short, so there could be questions. 12:48.840 --> 12:52.840 Any questions in the back? 12:52.840 --> 12:59.560 What's your thoughts on a set of life versus a set of life approach for the legislation 12:59.560 --> 13:04.520 of governments? Like, for example, do you want to hear speech touch across the Belgian 13:04.520 --> 13:09.880 approach, which is they started fading as the government will need to see if they're leaving 13:09.880 --> 13:16.040 that out of them, because we need to continue to act with all of the services. 13:17.320 --> 13:21.480 Then, of course, we worked, the EI can easily get success to read from that, and that is also 13:21.480 --> 13:24.920 about the only success to read out of that, so I'm curious what your thoughts are about, 13:24.920 --> 13:27.400 do you think the second life thing that we should build to make that happen? 13:27.400 --> 13:32.280 Or is it a set of life things where you have multiple government needs to kind of do their own things? 13:32.280 --> 13:39.240 Yeah. Yeah. So the question was about thoughts on centralization and the centralization, 13:39.240 --> 13:45.640 and there was an example from Belgium, but it's mostly decentralization across government agencies 13:45.640 --> 13:53.160 then, right? That's a very good question. I think that when choosing open source, you should have 13:53.160 --> 13:59.400 the freedom, as usual, and the liberty to choose your own stack. But since we are governments, 13:59.400 --> 14:05.800 and we need to provide certain services, they should be linked and be able to work together as well. 14:05.880 --> 14:12.120 So, same with the co-platform, we are going to set up for you. You're free to choose another platform, 14:12.120 --> 14:21.640 if you want. But there will be probably an obligation to mirror your code there, 14:21.640 --> 14:29.080 because of this transparency laws. I am personally all for decentralization, as long as it works 14:29.080 --> 14:33.560 well together. It needs to be interoperable and compatible with each other. 14:36.280 --> 14:39.480 Okay. I will wait one second with the microphone. 14:45.400 --> 14:55.240 Great technology. Yeah, it's more of a scaling question that I have, because you talked about 14:55.240 --> 15:03.880 the government and how to use like, yeah, open source in the public sector, right? But how can we 15:03.960 --> 15:11.240 raise awareness? Because especially if we want to be more sovereign, it should not be just 15:11.240 --> 15:17.640 in the public sector. I believe. Yeah. So, what can we do and how can we raise awareness so that 15:18.440 --> 15:24.280 outside of these two kilometer radius? People actually know that open source exists that there are 15:24.280 --> 15:31.960 non-US or Chinese or commercial solutions that actually exist and that are as good if not better, 15:32.440 --> 15:41.240 than what they actually use. Just as a quick, you mentioned like, top down, bottom up, right? 15:42.840 --> 15:49.720 Would it be possible that the European governments, if they really believe in open source, 15:50.920 --> 15:58.280 they would start spreading the word that open source actually exists, right? So that it would be like 15:59.240 --> 16:08.120 government initiative to actually share and, yeah, so not just in public, basically, but also in our daily 16:08.120 --> 16:15.560 lives. Yeah. I think that's an excellent question, because it touched upon how do we involve not 16:15.560 --> 16:22.760 just government, but also regular people, civilians, and not just to select group programmers that 16:22.840 --> 16:29.000 we happen to like or to fund, but the broader public and how do we create awareness? I think 16:29.800 --> 16:35.320 I think the European Commission and the parliament already do a great job, and we have lobby 16:35.320 --> 16:42.120 organizations such as the FSFE who are doing campaigns. It's still a task for governments to 16:42.120 --> 16:49.160 create more awareness on it, but for the Dutch governments, I'm actually mildly impressed with how 16:50.120 --> 16:55.480 prioritizing this as of the new government, I know. But yeah, it is a task for government to make 16:55.480 --> 17:01.240 to create more awareness and to make this more visible. But also for these projects that I mentioned, 17:01.240 --> 17:06.600 at some point, we will have to think about how are we going to engage a broader public, 17:06.600 --> 17:12.120 and not just have it foreign by governments that will be a shame. We have another question here, 17:12.120 --> 17:17.720 one thing about questions, when you race your hand, keep it up so that I know, and it's also 17:17.720 --> 17:22.440 like who holds it longer, has a higher chance that I will see that. 17:24.840 --> 17:28.760 Thank you very much for your talk. You say how do we ensure sustainability? This is the question 17:28.760 --> 17:33.000 we've never had to ask from the open source community from maintainers and people who are 17:33.000 --> 17:37.480 doing the actual coding, what would be the most useful resources for you to understand that 17:37.480 --> 17:43.320 question as a policy maker? What can we provide for you that would make that an easier question 17:43.320 --> 17:49.560 around sustainability? Yeah, so I'm very active on that on, and I asked our server in the wider 17:49.560 --> 17:55.400 Fediver's once, what would you, how would you like to be supported if we chose your solution? 17:55.400 --> 18:00.280 Would you want money? Would you want hand to help out with coding? Would you want to be left alone? 18:00.280 --> 18:08.440 And I got many answers. There wasn't one uniform answer, but even if the answer is we want money, 18:08.440 --> 18:17.000 or we want hands, then we still need to help them get into a place where they can accept that help. 18:17.720 --> 18:24.280 And that goes from the start of procurement, we want to buy our user solution all the way to 18:24.280 --> 18:29.240 we're now active collaborators and maintainers. Yeah, that's something that we still need to figure out. 18:30.440 --> 18:36.760 On the Dutch level, the Ospo helped found the DulseBad, the Dutch open source business 18:36.760 --> 18:40.520 alliance, there's also the appell at the European level where a lot of open source communities 18:40.520 --> 18:50.840 and businesses come together, and they then conform a block sort of a group to deal with governments, 18:50.840 --> 18:59.240 and to bid on tenors together, for example. So I have another question here, then here, 18:59.240 --> 19:03.320 then there and there. I will do my best. I understand that my presentation. 19:05.320 --> 19:13.000 Yeah, who made a quick question, you stated a lot of very good, very fundamental questions in 19:13.000 --> 19:18.840 the presentation, but can you elaborate a little bit further on where you are on exploring those questions? 19:18.840 --> 19:24.840 Like, what are the actual outcomes that you've already achieved or not yet achieved, 19:25.160 --> 19:31.480 struggle with in particular? Can you talk a bit more about that? Yeah, yeah. So what we have figured 19:31.480 --> 19:38.120 out is, in this use case, what is allowed? When can we publish something? That's something that 19:38.120 --> 19:45.880 we're now pretty comfortable answering. This is something that we're in the middle of, so how 19:47.160 --> 19:51.240 is it going to work when we use a suite with all of these different open source solutions, 19:51.240 --> 19:56.760 and then we have to prepare some and so on or free, and now do we collaborate? So that's where we're still 19:59.240 --> 20:07.000 finding answers, basically. So another question here? Thank you very much. I wanted to ask about 20:07.000 --> 20:14.120 a point you touch upon in the presentation about cloud services, about big tech, and how we want to 20:14.120 --> 20:19.800 look at those with a critical eyes, right? And I just wondering what do you think the gaps are, 20:19.880 --> 20:26.200 I'm thinking about cloud services, for example, and how to tackle maybe those gaps, and what 20:26.200 --> 20:32.600 the Dutch government can do, and you mentioned policy equal money, which is a good, 20:33.640 --> 20:37.800 no-mechanical, it also can be tackled at the Dutch level and what maybe the European level. 20:38.600 --> 20:43.720 Yeah, so the question being about the infrastructure and then the big tech alternatives on 20:44.120 --> 20:48.760 Yeah, and the gaps that there are. Well, I'm glad that this slide is open, because we've been 20:48.760 --> 20:53.240 very active on this front, but this is of course sort of the front end of what a civil 20:53.240 --> 20:57.480 government sees, and then where are you going to host this? That is still a big problem for Dutch 20:57.480 --> 21:03.640 government, because we don't have an integrated, nice government cloud. So we're still in the 21:03.640 --> 21:08.440 awkward position that we have, all of these great alternatives, and then oh, where are we going to 21:08.440 --> 21:14.360 host it, and oh, that's like 10 times more expensive than AWS, for example. So that's something 21:14.360 --> 21:22.360 for us to figure out. Unfortunately, we do have, as I mentioned on this slide, but we have a team 21:22.360 --> 21:27.400 that is working on that, besides the whole cloud infrastructure, but also Davo, the digitally 21:27.400 --> 21:32.680 autonomous workspace, they're sort of looking at alternatives on a server level, infrastructure, 21:32.760 --> 21:39.560 the whole networks, and then the OS, and then to bring that together. So another question here, 21:39.560 --> 21:46.120 and again, if you want to ask a question, I saw some with the order, keep it up, else I will think, 21:46.120 --> 21:50.200 okay, answer your question is answered, and you're at the back of the queue again. Sorry. 21:51.880 --> 21:55.800 Hi, my name is Katina Mayerson from the Coalition for Fair to do this to education, 21:55.800 --> 22:01.400 and I'm trying to move the entire education sector also to open source, but what I noticed is mentioned 22:01.480 --> 22:05.960 a lot of positive things in energy that are things that are happening, but what I noticed, 22:05.960 --> 22:12.120 if you look back into the history, it's since most of the Hendrik, so like over 20 years, 22:13.480 --> 22:21.240 over 20 years, the politics, or say, oh, you shoot, do open source, and after such a motion is adopted, 22:21.240 --> 22:25.800 then there's a bit of positive vibe, and some things happen. And after a few months, 22:25.880 --> 22:32.120 everybody goes back to normal, so the American cloud again. I mean, at the same time we're talking 22:32.120 --> 22:37.960 about this, and all the positive things you mentioned, the tax offices still busy migrating towards 22:37.960 --> 22:44.680 the American cloud. So why would it this time be different? I think, yeah, excellent question. 22:44.680 --> 22:49.960 Why would this time be different? Because we've done it so often, and then we saw the 22:49.960 --> 22:53.960 our back on Microsoft and Google and Amazon. I think this time is going to be different, 22:54.040 --> 22:59.000 and I might be a bit of an optimist in that, because it's now gone from, oh, we might say, 22:59.000 --> 23:04.680 if money, or we don't like bush, but Microsoft's so easy to digital sovereignty. 23:05.640 --> 23:12.760 That's now the hope that we hang everything on, and that these stories are very, very 23:13.480 --> 23:20.440 visible to also people in charge who are not super concerned with open source. 23:21.320 --> 23:25.880 So I, it is my hope that this time it will be different. 23:25.880 --> 23:33.800 Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for the talk. Driven's off from a two-delft, and we work with 23:33.800 --> 23:40.840 surf, within the Netherlands, for early often. My question here is about how does the strategy work 23:40.840 --> 23:44.600 when even something like surf wants to say, birch the cloud, it's still depending on AWS, 23:44.680 --> 23:50.200 Azure, and to you, Delph, we are essentially an unwilling matter with Microsoft, and we keep 23:50.200 --> 23:54.280 having it more and more coming. What did you think of as the strategy within the government 23:54.280 --> 23:59.320 to say address that? Is there any specific strategy to move away from it? Or is it just allowed 23:59.320 --> 24:04.120 to say, okay, we'll see where it goes, because right now we are being pushed to Microsoft 365, 24:04.120 --> 24:10.280 like strongly. Yeah. So it's about cloud infrastructure and the strategy for it. 24:10.280 --> 24:16.920 Yeah. Well, it's not as, we're not as blusher about it as, oh, we'll see where it goes. 24:16.920 --> 24:24.040 There's definitely strategies you've been worked out for cloud alternatives, and especially European 24:24.040 --> 24:31.480 sovereign and Dutch national alternatives. But that will take time. That's a lot of infrastructure 24:31.480 --> 24:38.520 builds. There's an infamous story of a Dutch civil servant on the hoods who build a I tool kit 24:38.600 --> 24:44.120 and wanted it to, wanted to host it somewhere, and he looked up on AWS, how to host it, 24:44.120 --> 24:49.960 and it took like 19 minutes to have it deployed, and then he went to the Dutch data centers 24:49.960 --> 24:56.680 that we have, and after 10 months, and 10 times the amount of money, it still wasn't there. 24:56.680 --> 25:00.680 So that's sort of indicates what a journey was, we're all on. 25:01.560 --> 25:06.200 My name is, maybe. Oh, sorry. The mic is there. I'm sorry. 25:07.480 --> 25:13.640 Thank you. I have a different question about the policy about open source on this, and the 25:13.640 --> 25:19.160 on this part is very vague and still not really defined. They use it. I've experienced it myself 25:19.160 --> 25:25.320 that they use it for all kinds of reasons, mostly security. And now with Solfinity, and dehyde, 25:25.400 --> 25:29.000 which is an identity provider, basically, in the Netherlands, which is required, 25:29.720 --> 25:37.320 being sold to an American company, it seems to see why this whole process is there in the first place, 25:37.320 --> 25:43.480 and why there is no clear line on less and security, because everything just falls on the 25:43.480 --> 25:49.160 security basically. So, maybe explain a little bit about that process over there. And if there's 25:49.160 --> 25:52.920 any chance that that will be refined or better with this new government? 25:53.320 --> 26:02.040 Yeah. So, just to explain the example, Solfinity is a company that hosts our 26:03.640 --> 26:10.680 identity access provider for all the civilians in the Netherlands, and am I saying that correctly? 26:12.120 --> 26:17.800 Right? Yeah. I've just about Solfinity Parked, and it was sold to an American company, 26:17.800 --> 26:21.560 and that was all of our infrastructure. So that's sort of sort of proves, because dehyde, 26:21.640 --> 26:26.040 the identity and access provider, is open source for the most part. 26:27.640 --> 26:32.040 But the infrastructure was sold to an American company, and then that raises the question, 26:32.040 --> 26:38.040 okay, how did Solfinity are you, actually? That requires a strategy, and I see that the current 26:38.040 --> 26:44.600 government and the previous government has that in scope, but it still needs to be worked out. 26:46.600 --> 26:50.760 We try one last question. I'm very sorry for those who still raised their hand that we 26:50.760 --> 26:55.160 can't cover them very quick one. I'm very happy to see more open source of 26:55.160 --> 27:03.400 during the central government of the Netherlands, but I'm curious how would you also make 27:03.400 --> 27:09.960 this enthusiasm translate into the other forms of government or public sectors? 27:09.960 --> 27:15.000 So like municipalities, provinces, schools, hospitals, and so on, because you might 27:15.720 --> 27:20.520 have some enthusiasm in open source, but you need to also convince the others. 27:21.800 --> 27:26.840 It's funny that you mentioned that because the decentral governments, the municipalities, the 27:26.840 --> 27:33.240 provinces, are way more enthusiastic about this than us. And sometimes they're even further ahead, 27:33.240 --> 27:39.640 because they have a smaller scale to work with, and can easier deploy alternatives. So there's no 27:39.640 --> 27:44.760 convincing on our part. They're usually come to us to say like, okay, but when, when can we start? 27:44.840 --> 27:53.640 So it's great. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I'm sorry. That's good point. 27:53.640 --> 27:58.440 I'm sorry that we have to cut it here. Please show me for a big round of applause for Jena. 28:07.880 --> 28:11.080 And if you want to go to another session, and please try to leave 28:14.760 --> 28:16.760 you